Ski Boat Forum
Repairs and Maintenance => Engine Repair/Maintenance - All Ski Boats => Topic started by: JDSkier91 on September 20, 2010, 06:57:55 PM
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Hey everyone! I just came across this site the other day. I have to say it's pretty cool there is a group like this. I just got my 91 Advance last summer and I love it! I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for my current dilemma. I dont think I am getting the power I should out of the boat right now. I was pulling a wakeboarder with just me and 3 other people in the boat and it was really struggling. Today I took it out, and with just me in the boat I could only get it up to 33mph @ 3000rpms.
Could it be the prop? The guy I bought it from put a 4 blade prop on the boat.
Could it be the timing? It occasionally backfires when I try to start it and it has been doing this weird thing where it will start right up (on a cold start), run for a couple minutes then just shut off. After that I cant get it started unless I let it sit for a few minutes. It might do that a couple times then its fine for the rest of the day.
ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRICIATED!
Here are my specs:
91 Advance, 351 W, 4160 Holly Carb (automotive model, came that way)
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First thing you need to do is put a marine Carb on that thing for safety sake. I don't know much about props but Dan T does so I hope he chimes in. I do recall him telling me you wont get as much pull with a 4 blade I think, but ill let him explain it way better than I can. As far as the timing, just put a light on it. If you don't have one parts stores rent them for free.
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gongchuan, I know you're right about the marine carb thing... I just hate that $500 set back. The only difference I could see between the Marine and auto 4160 was a protective coating, vent tubes, and about $250. I bought the vent tubes thinking I could just throw those on and call it a day. 1 prob though... they don't fit
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JDSkier91,
Welcome and thanks for singing up on the forum.
Yeah, the marine carb is all about safety and I think everyone will probably say it's pretty dangerous to run without one. You need the J-tubes, and also I think the throttle shafts are a bit different to prevent fuel from leaking out onto the manifold. I found a site that has refurbished ones with warranties for what seems like a pretty fair price. Here: http://www.nationalcarburetors.com/marine/fourbarrelholley.aspx (http://www.nationalcarburetors.com/marine/fourbarrelholley.aspx)
It's going to still run you 220.00 but it would be worth it. Or perhaps someone around here has a used one they are willing to let go for cheaper?
I think the performance issue you describe sounds like a timing issue. Maybe to far advanced? One of our resident gear heads will respond with better info..You'll also want to find out what prop size your running it should be stamped on the hub of the prop. A stock 351 with a 3 blade 13x13 would run 4400RPM or so.
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I also have a 91 Advance with the same motor, etc. Yep... start with a marine grade carb - you can adjust a Holley easily - just google it for directions. If it still has points & a condenser you may want to consider an electronic ignitor - for your Ford 351 engine a Petronix 1581 works well (this part # includes a new rotor with it). I just installed it on my 351 - it took about 20 minutes and its a HUGE difference in performance. Then get a timing light on her...
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You may want to talk to Brandon on the forum here. He may have a carb for sale. He is parting out his advance and may still have it floating around.
Also, how long have you had the boat? Has it ever ran faster or turned harder since you have owned it? When is the last time the plugs/wires/oil...... basic tunup been done?
I would also do a compression and leakdown test.
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Are the marine carburetors made differently to compensate for being on an angle? Thought I had heard that one time.
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I dont know for sure on the Holley, but my Edelbrock isnt any diff. except for the pump itself and some extra seals on the linkage shafts. There should be a plate that is under the carb that levels it out. (thats the way mine works anyhow).
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ok, well I have a friend who is going to put a timing light on it tomorrow. I guess we will see where that takes us.
Joel, thanks for the Petronix 1581 reccomendation. I might have to give that one a try.
phil, thanks for showing me that site. I'm sure i can swing 220 and i dont have to worry about the boat going up in flames, so thats a plus!
gongchuan, also thanks for the help. The boat was running a little better when we first got it, but so much has been done since then. I had to replace the lifters, rebuild the carb, and a few other things. I have a hard time remembering, but I dont think I have ever seen her break 40. As far as tune up, I just changed the oil and filter, it also has a new fuel pump and filter, spark plugs where replaced last summer, I have not touched the wires.
I'm going to start with the engine wed. Take a second look at the prop, try to get some more info and let u guys know what I find.
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Why did you replace the lifters? and who built the carb? did you ever run it before the carb was built???
Only reason I ask is I had a buddy get his carb built and the idiot left a gasked out that led the fuel to being dumped into the motor...... bad situation.
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Welcome to the group! Not to get off topic, but I think I saw your boat on a Facebook link - white with a blue stripe with the "slalom girl?" Anyway, just wanted to say, nice boat...love the paint!
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Unless its a barefoot boat (usually has a bigger motor) your Advance is not designed to go REALLY fast... It should pull like a freight train out of the hole and get to the high 30s very quickly, but it wont go much faster. Mine tops out at about 40 mph (on the installed speedometers - havent tried a GPS or radar gun). The boat is not designed for top end speed - most people dont ski faster than 36 or so... unless your one of those crazy barefootin' dudes - then all bets are OFF!!!! :o
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Welcome to the group! Not to get off topic, but I think I saw your boat on a Facebook link - white with a blue stripe with the "slalom girl?" Anyway, just wanted to say, nice boat...love the paint!
Yeah...I think I saw this boat on facebook too. Isnt the name "Tic Tic"? Post more pics!!!
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gongchuan, I had to replace the lifters because one of them collapsed. This caused a ''tic tic" as lyman pointed out. It is NOT the name of the boat, I will have to give you the full story later. Lyman is just trying to be funny. The guy who rebuilt the carb did a good job, the performance was better.
Pelvic woo, thanks. When I got the boat it was really chalky. I took the old lettering off because it was in bad shape, that’s when I realized the gel coat was a totally different color underneath. I wet sanded the whole boat, put a few coats of 3M marine wax, then had a friend of mine cover the problem area with that blue strip and the logo. I actually got the logo off the facebook page and had him recreate it. The stripe and logo are just vinyl. If anyone needs help with that, I would be happy to point you in the right direction.
Joel, I’m perfectly happy with 40mph. I actually wakeboard more myself. I am more concerned that it has trouble pulling a 2 person tube, and that it has trouble getting up to speed pulling a wakeboarder when I only have 3 people in the boat. I’m checking the points tomorrow.
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welcome aboard the board
if you have an advance w/ 351 she should run out in proper tune to about
4400 - 4600 rpm which usually translates to 43-44 mph
most 18' s run out about 42-43 mph
any skier topping out @ 3000 rpm / 30 mph has a problem
we can't help with bits and pieces of maybe this maybe that info
if your not making the power your not going to get the performance you should be.
if you are making the power and still not getting the correct performance the load has increased significantly
Dan T
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I checked the timing today and it was a little off. We adjusted it, but I have not had a chance to take her out on the lake yet to see what the top end is like. The thing is… I am having another problem. Every time I start the engine on a cold start it fires right up, idles well, but after 2min it just shuts off very sudden, it does not putter. It just turns off. After that, it will not get going again unless I let her sit for a few minutes. I repeat the cycle a few times and then it will run fine the rest of the day. I don’t know if this is related to my lack of power, but fixing the timing did not fix this issue.
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Compression and bleed down test next? Possible transmission problem? That what I would check next and in that order. But that's just me. Are you sure the Carb is getting to wide open throttle?
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I have never done a compression and bleed down test... but I can prob figure that out. Trans seems fine. I put a marine carb on order.
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Easy to do, and you can "borrow" the tool from auto zone or any of the likes. basically you pull a spark plug and spin the motor over to see what your compression is.... then leave it sit and see if the number goes down (if you have leak down)
This will tell you if you have good compression and will also tell you if your rings or valves are not holding properly. If you dont have any compression...... sadly you can skip the leakdown test cause that aint good.
I see you ordered a new carb, but have you ever went to the carb you have and made sure the throttle is opening all the way? someone may have adjusted something (on the cable or if it has been replaced) incorrectly so the butterflies are not opening fully.
with the motor NOT running, push your throttle lever all the way forward. Then take a look at the carb linkage. See if you can push the throttle linkage open further by hand. If it wont move at all you may need to pull the cable off of the linkage to check it, but in either case, if the linkage goes further forward than your cable is pushing it, then you dont have wide open throttle and that could be your problem.
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I'll try the compression check this weekend. As far as the carb goes... I can not get it to go over 3000rpm under load but if i take it out of gear I can rev the engine to 4500rpm. I will still check the linkage when I check the compression.
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Before you spend to much money check your fuel lines all the way back to the tank, remove fuel/water separator housing and clean. also check the elbow and anti siphon valve on top of the tank (small elbow with spring and ballbearing ) It may not be the problem but it sounds alot like the prob i had. there was debris in the anti siphon valve restricting the fuel flow. mine would start right up and die as soon as it burned the fuel that was in the line. Like I said may not be the problem but its always good to rule out the small things first.
daveo
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I re-read your posts, you are describing 2 different symtoms, dying after 2 mins then runs "fine" issue & lack of power under load as the other. Electrical & fuel issues can cause both, mechanical issues doubtfull. If you could list a known history of the performance and what you have done or replaced I will forward an opinion. Feel free to call, its got to be easier than the dual vanos timing problem I'm working on today. RonT 985-542-4336
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Gongchuan, I checked the compression, everything seems fine there. They were all 125-135, so I think that’s good. Right?
Thanks daveo, I’ll give that a try. I like the idea of not spending to much money… I feel like I have already replaced half the engine.
As for where the engine is at…
Last summer when I got the boat I remember it going around 40mph. Then I had a tick for awhile, turned out to be a collapsed lifter. So over the winter I replaced all the lifters. So far this year for one reason or another replaced the following:
New starter
New impeller
New fuel filter, oil filter, and oil (also have been using Valvtect Ethanol treatment in gas)
New oil pressure sensor
New neutral safety switch
New fuel pump
New fuel line (from pump to carb)
New carb (as of this past weekend)
New igniton switch, coil, spark plugs and spark plug wires (also this past weekend)
When I say the engine ran ‘’fine” I was referring to it sounding fine when it was not under a heavy load. It would run smooth and not backfire.The boat seemed to struggle getting up to speed with 3 people on the boat pulling a tub with 150lbs on it. If I took it up to 3000rpms it would start to backfire a little. It would do the same if I gunned it from idle. It also occasionally backfires when trying to start it.
We thought it might have a timing problem so we checked the timing. Moved around the timing and the dwell, neither helped (if anything made it worse, so we put them back). Now it seems like the problem is getting worse. I can not drive the boat at all. It starts up, sounds fine then shuts off after 20sec to a minute. If I let it sit a few minutes, it will crank back up, but soon dies again. If I try to start it right after it dies, then it won’t start. It seems like it is cranking slower now too, even with a new starter and fully charged battery.
Specs
91 AS Advance,351 W Indmar, Holly 4160 Marine carb(new), Prestolite breakerless marine distributor, Prop: OJ 13x13 4blade legend
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Don't replace it just because I say this but the ruff running and backfire might be the coil?.....
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Yeah, but we put on a new coil.
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My bad, I was called out EARLY this morning and half asleep when I went through your last post....... now I see.