Ski Boat Forum
Repairs and Maintenance => Engine Repair/Maintenance - All Ski Boats => Topic started by: DustinS on March 07, 2012, 10:11:58 PM
-
First off i just wanna say a friend of mine and fellow American Skier owner just showed me the forum this week and needless to say I've been on it every night since. I think it's a great idea and glad I can now be a part of it i think it's awesome how everyone helps each other out! I have a 83 Volante ( i was told it was a barefoot skier because it had no logos or stickers on it but wasn't sure if it was true)i bought it 6 years ago from a guy who treated it like one of his kids it had 600 hours on it when i bought it. 2 summers ago it started losing a considerable amount of power at this time it had close to 870 hours on it. At this time I had actually talked to Dan on the phone about different props and other parts i was intrested in. In the fall i ended up pulling the motor where i found a flat lobe on the cam. Then i ended up running out of money and put the boat back in storage. i ended up having to bore the block 40 over i got the pistons and rods done i just got in all the parts from Federal Marine for the Velvet Drive now I'm ready to start getting some engine parts ordered. My question is 1. Cams? whats a good cam to run in it? 2. I had some parts powder coated and the pan was bad since I've been on here I've seen some posts saying it has a different pan then most small blocks. where do i find this at? Any other pointers would be greatly appreciated I'm not cutting any corners on this as i plan on either dyeing in or behind this boat before i would ever even think about selling it!! I was also needing a button for the bilge pump and the little red light next to it. my right speedo leaks water when you put the reader down in the back the chrome around them also is getting some light corrosion i wasn't sure if there were replacement parts for them. Also my clock works great but the face of it is oxidized which is odd to me because all the other gauges look great still. Any help on these problems would be a great help. It has a 350 in it (i was under the assumption that was the only motor that model came with).
-
Ok, first of all welcome!
*Disclaimer, the following is what I have come to understand and may not always be 100% accurate to your case*
1. Is it a Barefoot Skier? I own an 86 Barefoot Advance. I have been told that the only real difference in the Barefoot and the standard American Skier model is the engine and horespower rating. Please advance to question 2........ ;D
2. Engine is a 350.... Standard engines for marine use at this point in time were "Fords" 302s or 351's. If your block is a GM based marine engine that was original to the boat then there is a great chance you have a Barefoot. The GM based plants were almost always rated at higher horsepower than the Ford base plants in that day and age.
3. Cam, Cam, Cam....... at this point I am almost in the same boat as you (pun intended). I built my engine during my overhaul. I dont know if something went wrong with the build or if a part was bad from the factory, regardless I threw a rod..... Not good. I am in the process now of purchasing a GM performance crate engine. I cant use the stock cam so I had to do some hunting of my own. As a suggestion I would reccomend looking at comp cams Xtreme Marine series of cams. The cam I am ordering is a roller cam so the part number will do you no good, but if you contact Comp cams directly they will take your information and suggest the best cam for your application.
4. Oil pan. The only difference I could tell in my oil pan from a car or truck pan is the capacity. My pan holds 6 quarts of oil where a stock pan holds 5. There may be other differences, but if there are I dont know them. In fact my pan will fit your block but will not fit my new block (Im going roller block) so if you want a stock pan I may just be able to help you out in the near future. Get with me. Interestingly enough I powdercoat on the side and could make it the color of your choice before I sent it to you if you choose to go that route. You would need to be sure the dip stick tube is on the same side as mine as that usually was the only difference in the blocks back in the day as far as mounting them.
5. Speedo's, if one is leaking water from behind Id say its almost certain that your pitot tube has either come off the barb it is supposed to fit on on the back of the speedo or it has a crack or split in it. Water coming in is because of a hole in the hose either being open ended because it fell off or a wear point where the tube actually failed.
Also, your trim rings...... well Im not going to use the word impossible, but they are damn near impossible to find. Your best bet is ebay or a bone yard. They dont make them anymore and parts are slim leaning way toward none.
6. If it was me and I was building my engine (which I did) I would just replace the clock meter (which I did). Thats just my opinion. The face is almost certainly plastic and I dont know any way you can get it off to clean it up to make it look good. Not to say it cant be done.
7. I have no idea about your switches. That would be best for Ron or Dan to help you with I think.
If anyone sees anything I missed or that is wrong please speak up, Im just trying to help out here 8) I have given the most accurate information according to my recollection. ;D
-
I actually have the oil pan, I have the stock indmar cam (if your GM based) and I have an aluminum intake I'd sell you cheap. I'm going to vortec and can't use them. Ill send you the cam for shipping cost and let you get it checked before you decided if you wanted it or not.
-
Dustin, Cant beat Mike's offer with a stick! He's a good guy... even if he is from... uhhmmmmm.... where ever the hell he's from... :o ROFLMAO!!!! :P
Joel
-
Thanks Joel I appreciate your input! Mike, i do have a gm motor is the cam new? Does the oil pan need any work? What do you need for the cam and oil pan? Thanks guys.
-
None of these items are new. The oil pan may end up needing a new drain line but the pan is in good shape as far as I can tell. The cam I had checked before I put my motor back together and it was said to be in like new condition. I only put 25 hours on the motor before a rod cap came apart.
Im not trying to make any real money here, just trying to help out if i can. Id take 10 for pan the way it sits (30 if you want me to coat it for you before I ship it off)
The cam Id like 40 for, but as stated before Id ship it to you for the shipping cost only until you can get it checked out. If your machine shop says its good then send me the 40, if not scrap it and get your shipping money back.
Id also take 40 for the aluminum intake (Edelbrock dual plain) if you still have the old stock cast iron intake I would reccomend this intake, not only for the performance but to drop about 50 pounds off your boat. Just a suggestion.
So thats $110 if the cam is good, lets just round it off to $100 plus shipping (again minus the 40 for cam until you have it checked)
Let me know
-
Or $70 if you dont want the intake and you do want the pan coated....... just send me a message, we'll get something figured out if you want.
-
Mike,
Your like the freakin' tooth fairy... A true AM Skier enthusiast!!! Cant wait till I meet ya at the next reunion... Hope that doesnt sound too gay... :o LOL!!!
-
If Im not going to use it and its going to go to the scrap pile, why not get a little out of it and hopefully give quite a bit for someone else?
No since in it rusting away in some junk pile!
-
Hey Mike I sent you a couple emails. I'd like to get that pan from you and have it undercoated, call me at (316)259-5030 and ill get your address and send you a check or you can email me. that's all I'm really waiting on as far as parts so the sooner the better if you can do it. Thanks
-
Well, Im sorry to say Ive got some bad news. I had not pulled the engine until yesterday (got your email, waiting to pull motor to get back with you) and the pan has a tell tale hole in it that I did not see from the top side.
I know this puts you in a bind and Im sorry, I really thought it would work out for you. My next best guess/opinion would be to check out Backfoot100's 383 engine build thread. He purchased a brand new pan that fits correctly. I know you can get the information from him on what he purchased.
If you still want this pan its yours...... Im sure it could be fixed, but I wouldnt recommend it.
Sorry again,
Mike
-
No problem Mike thanks for letting me know and thanks for your help i appreciate it!!
-
Dustin,
Mike is right, I did replace my oil pan. I used a a Milodon street pan. It's a 5 qt vs. the stock 6 qt. but that'll still be enough oil for you. It gives you more clearance to the bildge and it bolted right on. No hammering it into shape like I've heard with other pans (chinese). The only problem I have is that I still have a leak on the rear end of it that I need to pull the engine and redo. My machinist says that he's had a few oil pans that gave him fits in getting to seal the right way. That just doesn't happen that often with American made pans but it's possible.
It has a built in windage tray and it has a golden anti-rust finsh so you can bolt it right on or paint it if you want.
If your engine is truly an '83 you would need Milodon part number 31502. That's for a two piece RMS and a RH dipstick.
Hope this helps.
By the way after rereading the original post, I was just curious, what oil were you running when the cam lobe got wiped out? With the fed's mandated changes to more energy conserving standards over the last several years the lubrication properties of oils has diminished and there are now not a lot of oils that are adequate for our flat tappet engines. Virtually all new engines in the last decade don't run flat tappets any more so there isn't the same concerns that we have. If you were running an inadequate oil when the lobe got wiped out, I just want to ensure that you don't make that same mistake after you rebuild it. It could also prevent other members from making the same mistake.
-
Tanks Eddie, I found a pan for it today though. it is a all original motor i also ran the block number to make sure it is a 83 it has the original aluminum intake on it and from what i had explained to Ron its all period correct for a 83 volonte barefoot. i bought the boat from a family friend who had it since mid to late 80s. He always ran Kendall 20w 50 in it and i continued to for a few more years then i switched to castrol synthetic 20w 50. i don't know if that is what caused it or not but within 2 years of changing brands it shot craps!! i don't know what I'm gonna use in it now but I'm pretty sure it wont be synthetic and it will probably be Kendall 20w 50. if it held together with it that many years it must be a descent oil!
-
Dustin,
Just because it ran good in it for a years on one oil doesn't mean that it'll run with it now. as I said, the quality of oil that contains the amount of ZDDP that we need in our flat tappet motors has significantly diminished in the last several years.
You need to do your homework where this is concerned now. Check on the company website to verify if the oil does have sufficient ZDDP in it for flat tappet motors. I'm not aware of the Kendall's specs or the Castrol synthetic that you started using but I would assume that could have certainly been the reason for your issues.
I know these are a few (as of right now) that can be used:
Valvaline VR1 20W-50
Shell Rotella T-1 30W
Shell Rotella T-1 40W
Mobil1 15W-50
Amsoil Z-ROD 10W-30
Amsoil Z-ROD 20W-50
I'm sure there are more but definitely do some homework before switching to anything new.
-
I know these are a few (as of right now) that can be used:
Valvaline VR1 20W-50
Shell Rotella T-1 30W
Shell Rotella T-1 40W
Mobil1 15W-50
Amsoil Z-ROD 10W-30
Amsoil Z-ROD 20W-50
I'm sure there are more but definitely do some homework before switching to anything new.
By the way, this list is confirmed by users at CCFan. Several of them use the Valveline and Rotella. I personally used the M1 since I've owned the boat in '92.
To give you an idea about what I'm talking about, I was always a tried and true user of the M1 10W-30 until I found out that the ZDDP levels had dropped considerably in most of their oils. I started using the 15W-50 at that point as that is the only M1 (readily available anyway) that has enough ZDDP. In fact, the Mobil website stated that the ZDDP levels even in the 15W-50 had dropped from 1800 PPM to 1200 PPM but that it was still plenty for a flat tappet motor. Let me caveat the following statement that THIS IS PURELY MY PERSONAL OPINION: To this day, I have some reservations about the M1 and I personally think that it was at least partially the reason for my engine needing a rebuild but there is no way that I can prove it one way or another. Since my rebuild I have been running the Amsoil Z-ROD 10W-30 even though my engine no longer needs the higher ZDDP levels with a roller valve train. The higher ZDDP levels equate to better lubrication and protection properties overall and that is the reasoning for my use. I'm just no longer confident about the M1 but it still is the oil used in at least two friends boats with flat tappet motors.
-
I agree with Eddie. Just to thow another name out there, Royal Purple makes a great oil that is high in ZDDP. I have run that for years both in race applications (cars) and in my boats and personal vehicles.
Just FYI
-
NAPA usually has their NAPA brand (made by Valvoline) on sale. I purchased a case of their 15W50 synthetic for pennies on the dollar as compared to the Valvoline Syn. It is the same as the Valvoline 15W50 Synthetic but is branded NAPA. Double-check the ZDDP amounts, but I'm pretty sure there is plenty for our use, especially if you change your oil seasonally (if not more often).
Joel
-
What exactly does a flat tappet motor mean? Is that cause its just a regular build and not a roller motor? And what is zddp?thanks for everyone's input on the oil its been educational I had no clue I was looking for anything other then brand and weight.
-
Tappet or "lifter" is what everyone is talking about. The old school motors use a flat bottom lifter where as the newer style motors have rollers on the bottom of the lifters.
This is not the only difference between a flat tappet and a roller motor, but it is why people refer to them as flat tappet and roller.
ZDDP = Zink Dithiophosphate. Good for lubing and engine, bad for the environment. Good for lube is why its needed on flat tappet cams, bad for the environment is why oil companies are taking more and more of it out of their oils. Plus the new roller style engines dont need near as much of it.
Remember, when talking about ZDDP addative, your talking PPM (parts per million). Its in there, but its pretty scarce as it is even at high amounts.
-
Good explaination Mike.
Dustin,
If you want to find out more about it, you can go to bobistheoilguy.com and start reading. Or just do a search on the internet. My only problem is that a lot of guys on bobistheoilguy tend to be very brand loyal so you have to be open minded but there is some really good info there.
-
Thanks a bunch guys! I figured that was the difference in motors but the oil I never paid attention to honestly. Thanks again for the heads up or I would of dumped the same oil as before in it now I know what to look for.